There’s something familiar about watching Idina Menzel and Kristin Chenoweth have a conversation — the way that one of them tends to be a bubbling extrovert, the other more introspective but observant and ready with a joke. After a long day in workshops for their respective musical projects, the two of them slip into the familiar language of longtime collaborators, with inside jokes and catch-ups. You may have seen it onstage before, in a musical called Wicked.
When that show opened on Broadway on October 30, 2003, Chenoweth originated the role of Galinda/Glinda, the perky good witch with hidden insecurities, and Menzel played Elphaba, the outcast turned green wicked witch. The show, based on Gregory Maguire’s prequel to The Wizard of Oz, with a book by Winnie Holzman, songs by Stephen Schwartz, and directed by Joe Mantello, was an expensive, effects-heavy production, coming to New York after a very long development. The reviews were middling to negative. But there was something in its spectacle, its music, and especially that friendship between Glinda and Elphaba, and hordes of fans, especially young women, began making their way to the Gershwin Theatre, and still do. A whole generation of actresses have succeeded them in those parts onstage and will soon do so onscreen with the long-in-the-works film adaptation — and in other musicals clearly inspired by Wicked, most notably Frozen. “I’m always so proud of what Idina and I laid down,†Chenoweth says. “So many women have done so well in those roles. That means that we did our jobs.â€
Kristin, you started on workshops for Wicked in 2000 and then Idina auditioned and joined the show in 2001. But do you remember when you first met?
Idina Menzel: I saw her in You’re a Good Man, Charlie Brown in 1999, and she had to collect money for Broadway Cares. She was there in her costume with the bucket. I told her how amazing I thought she was. We had common friends and stuff, but I didn’t want to bother her because I knew she was exhausted.
Kristin Chenoweth: I didn’t even know that. What year was Rent, Dee?
I.M.: ’96 on Broadway.
K.C.: I was doing Steel Pier, and we performed at the Tonys in 1997. I had a couple of friends in Rent, and I had gone on the sly. I know La Bohème well, but I was like, What’s this Rent going to be? and I was blown away by her. So I saw her backstage at the Tonys. You’ll never remember this, but I was walking down the stairs and she was walking up, and as we passed, I was like, “Hi, you’re great.â€
I.M.: Well, at least, thank you.
When you started working together on Wicked together in those workshops, how far away did it feel from what you could go see onstage today?
K.C.: I mean, it changed a lot. I thought it got better and better, frankly, and it needed to.
I.M.: We’re both working on original musicals now, and it’s scary. You’re putting in a lot of time and a lot of love. I think, as with Wicked, if the show has three magical moments that can get everybody all the time, it’s worth holding onto and figuring it out. Six months later it changes and it sucks and then you come back a year later and fix it again.
K.C.: Once we got to our San Francisco tryout, the critics weren’t loving it, but the audiences were. I remember thinking that between “Defying Gravityâ€â€”
I.M.: “Popularâ€â€”
K.C.: —And “For Good,†there’s your three things. You’re absolutely right. People always said that there wasn’t a show in two women together as leads. When it was pitched to me it was like, “You’re very much the side character. You’re very much the supporting character.†When Idina got cast, it felt like it wasn’t going to be that. It felt like we were together.
Let’s talk about those three moments. Do you remember first singing “For Good†together?
I.M.: I’ve seen the footage of us in the rehearsal room [from a PBS documentary about the making of the show], and that was pretty early into us learning it. The great thing was being in a room with an amazing composer and accompanist, standing at the piano with your fellow actor friend, knowing you’re creating something. It was working with people that embrace or encourage us to give our feedback and let ourselves be part of these characters and don’t just plant these melodies on us. They want it to be right for us and our voices and our emotionality.
K.C.: Stephen Schwartz was very wise in letting Elphaba take the higher part in that number because she’s flying. She’s on her way, and Glinda’s become more grounded. I remember thinking, This is why people do music theater right here. And then I thought, If they cut this, then I don’t know what the show’s about anymore. But luckily, we were on the same page.
I wanted to ask about something specific in “Defying Gravity†— on top of all the stage magic required to pull off the flying, Elphaba ends the song with this distinctive aaAAaaAHH button riff people have nicknamed the “battle cry.†You can hear it at the end of every Wicked TV commercial.
K.C.: And that was all her.
I.M.: The notes are written, I think.
K.C.: Not when you first got it, girl. I was there.
I.M.: I do know that “So if you care to find me†was originally much lower, and I was like, “Can I please take that out of the basement? She’s going up here.â€
K.C.: Thank God she did. That’s the thrilling part!
I.M.: Until the eighth show of the week.
K.C.: Similarly in the beginning, I entered low and belting [in the opening number, “No One Mourns the Wickedâ€]. I went to Stephen and said, “I feel she should be a soprano.†He goes, “You just want to sing your high notes.†I go, “Well, kind of, but I also want the character to come alive.†And that’s Glinda. If anybody’s a fucking soprano on the show, it’s her. But that’s a testament to Stephen. He listened to us both.
In “Popular,†there’s a little dance Glinda does, hopping across the stage going “La la …†The mannerism, to me, is very Kristin Chenoweth, and now every actress I’ve seen in the part since does some version of it. Did you find that in the room?
K.C.: I grew up very terribly wanting to be a ballerina. It was never that I wanted to be a singer or anything. But then I had flat feet. I can’t turn, certainly can’t jump. When Glinda’s singing that, I just imagine her in her room growing up. She probably loved ballet. She was a girlie-girl. So I went with the idea that she probably practiced and she wasn’t any good.
I.M.: We were going through so many changes at the time, and I’ve since learned that cold reading was something that gave me anxiety. I’ve worked with coaches on it, after the Wicked experience. But Kristin can pick up the paper and hear the rhythm immediately. It was something I always aspired to. My way of doing it’s different. I found my way now, in that I’m okay with making mistakes, but at least some real choices. I loved watching her process, especially with “Popular.†I always remember her blocking “Popular†for the first time in the rehearsal room. She figured out what she wanted to do, what props she wanted, where the lipstick should go. Her confidence, I think, really puts people at ease.
K.C.: It’s funny, I listen to you talk, and I never once thought you had that anxiety. I always thought she was concentrating and mapping out her role. I remember sitting when you were doing “The Wizard and I.†It was a whole new song [replacing “Making Good,†which Stephanie J. Block, who played Elphaba in the early readings, had sung] and you were embodying the character. I also remember the first time she got her green on. It was like she was a butterfly — she became the part. I’m glad I got to witness that.
Idina, how did you feel in the moment of first becoming green?
I.M.: I think for a lot of women who are known to be larger than life, who fill a room, there’s this thing of wanting to be seen and loving the attention and appreciation for our gifts but also, when people are actually looking at you, feeling terrified and vulnerable. That’s Elphaba’s whole journey. For me, it was the same thing. Everyone was staring at me that day and they were giving me such love, telling me how beautiful I looked. And there were so many thoughts going through my head. I was excited to be doing this role and I was thinking Am I stealing focus here?†and “Is that okay?†All those things. As women, we want to own something, but fear that’s off-putting. Can we love ourselves?
K.C.: Can we accept when people are saying, “We love youâ€? It’s hard to go, “I receive what you’re throwing down.â€
Idina flew at the end of “Defying Gravity†and Kristin entered the show flying in her bubble. Do you remember the first time each of you tried those stage mechanics out?
K.C.: The only thing I remember is that during tech Joe Mantello was going to give a few notes to me in the bubble, but it took me a few seconds to get up there. Then I got up there and they forgot. They started going on into practicing something else …
I.M.: And they left you up there?
K.C.: Yes, and I sang the highest note I could so that somebody would notice.
I.M.: In “Defying Gravity,†I was on a levitation device, on a two-by-two plank, like a pirate would walk. You stand on it and then you close this metal belt. Once it’s connected, it tells the computer you’re safe and you’re good. I remember they wanted to show me how safe it was, so one of the big crew guys rode in it. But the funny thing is when it doesn’t go up. When that happens, you unplug it and you walk and just sing “Defying Gravity†down center stage.
When was the first time it didn’t work and you had a no-fly show?
I.M.: I have to say it didn’t go wrong for a really long time. But I do remember that at one point Kristin had to go to the bathroom really bad, and she left me! She figured, Everyone’s watching Idina, I’ve got to go to the toilet.Â
K.C.: I had eaten something bad and I needed to leave! I ran off the stage to some crew guy and was like “Undo my dress now, now, now!†Idina’s going “Defying Gravity†and probably looking around for me. But let’s just say I barely made it.
I.M.: I had my bad fall [Menzel broke a rib during her last weekend in Wicked; she made a brief appearance at what would have been her final performance, walking onstage in a red tracksuit]. But I don’t like to remind the producers Marc Platt and David Stone. They feel really bad about it. Let’s just be happy about the 20th anniversary.
K.C.: I like to remind them. I remind them every chance I get I have a bad neck [Chenoweth injured her neck during the San Francisco tryout and later performed the show in a neck brace] because of Wicked. Print that.
I.M.: Let’s not talk about it. It’s not like I have a chip on my shoulder or anything. Just ruined my last weekend of the show ever.
The show did its out-of-town tryout in the summer of 2003 in San Francisco. The critical buzz was very skeptical, but the audiences started coming en masse. How were you both feeling during that tryout?
I.M.: I just always heard people going “What’s wrong with it?â€
K.C.: That’s what we heard, but then the audience, though.
I.M.: That was a weird thing to reconcile. All I kept telling myself was, We got Joe Mantello, Stephen Schwartz. If these guys can’t figure this out … That’s where you’ve got to trust the process.
K.C.: So much happens when you get in front of the audience. My problem is I come up with 360 ideas and then I like to get rid of them. I can only do that when I get the audience. It’s a lot to rectify.
I.M.: I do remember in San Francisco, when we were in tech, I would have the green makeup on all day because they wanted to see how it would look under different lights. We had this long dinner, we were all going to some diner or something nearby, and a really hot guy was walking toward me. He was staring at me and I was like, I still got it. I totally forgot that I had the green makeup on. Then I turned to look at the restaurant and I see myself in the window. And I was like, Oh my God, I look like a freak out here. That’s what he is looking at.
K.C.: I liked that we were right by a San Francisco Macy’s and it was a good one. I would go there when I needed peace—even if I didn’t spend money, I would just shop around.
I.M.: Well, it makes sense shopping would relax you.
K.C.: Thank you, Dee. Thank you.
From what I understand, between San Francisco and Broadway, they did a lot of work specifically on revising Elphaba’s part. What were those conversations like?
I.M.: I think a lot of Elphaba’s stuff was super-expositional. A lot of people were doing stuff around her, and she was going, “Oh, a lion. Oh, the scarecrow,†just commenting. She didn’t have enough action. It sounds silly because she defies gravity. But within the scene, things were happening around her instead of her having an action. That’s the stuff that they worked on. They were also trying to give her a sense of humor that was completely different from Kristin’s to give her some self-deprecating humor. She was a little flat, and so they worked on that. I also got more confident too. So I think it’s a combination of everyone evolving.
On October 30, 2003, how did the opening-night show on Broadway go?
K.C.: I don’t remember. I was so nervous and excited. I remember the party. I don’t know how you felt, Idina, but I just needed the opening night thing to happen.
I.M.: I like an opening night a lot because the critics have gone already, so opening night is friends and family. I tend to have more fun. Unfortunately, I think I always give a better performance then than the night when the reviewers are there, but whatever.
Were you anxious about the reviews? The critics in the major outlets (in the Times, Ben Brantley complimented Menzel and especially Chenoweth but wrote that “Wicked does not, alas, speak hopefully for the future of the Broadway musicalâ€) were not fans of the show, though others were kinder. (Elysa Gardner in USA Today said “this is the most complete, and completely satisfying, new musical I’ve come across in a long time.â€)
K.C.: I’m always anxious to see what they write, but it doesn’t define how I’m going to feel about the show, because I made a commitment to it. Who doesn’t want good reviews? We did. But at the same time, as I told her, you’re defying gravity at the end of act one, do you hear the audience? It ain’t gonna matter, baby. And it didn’t.
I.M.: We had the word-of-mouth and the kids, and that built through the whole year.
K.C.: It was so sweet, and so precious. I remember the stage door was like a Madonna concert. One night there was this burly guy standing there waiting for me. He was like, “Miss Chenoweth, I’m not ashamed to admit it, I like the piece.†I said, “what do you do?†He goes, “I’m a truck driver.†So as much as it was sweet to see little girls and our tribe loving it, it was nice to see somebody you wouldn’t expect at all.
I.M.: It had a slow burn. We were getting lots of letters and feedback from people, whether they be young girls or non-gender-conforming kids that see themselves in the role, or moms and daughters going to see the show together, or a cancer survivor who says “For Good†gets them through their chemo. That doesn’t happen, like, boom. It’s incremental, every week somebody says something and you start to go, “Wow.†Then you start to feel a real responsibility, I think, to the bigger picture. For me, I became less self-absorbed. We’re putting something out, but we’re also being given a gift. I learned so much about myself and about other people. When you play an empathic character, it teaches you so much more about humanity.
In the spring of 2004, Wicked was nominated for Best Musical at the Tonys, and you were both nominated for Best Actress. It was an intense April, where the sorts of tactics and spending that Oscar campaigns deployed came to Broadway. Avenue Q ran pretty much directly against Wicked (“Vote your heart†was the tagline of Avenue Q’s campaign) and won Best Musical, but Idina won Best Actress. How did it feel to be in the middle of that?
K.C.: I must’ve been a little slow on this. I remember thinking, I’m not going to show up at everything, and I didn’t. I didn’t campaign for Charlie Brown [for which Chenoweth won a Supporting Actress Tony], so I didn’t understand that this was a thing. I believed our work spoke for itself. I mean, I was very surprised. We were the big show, so I thought we’re probably going to win. I am a big fan of Avenue Q. They had their show and their journey. I love it. But our show is still running.
I.M.: We had the big show with all the money and the budget, so they demonized it. But I want to say something that I’ll never forget that Kristin did that I thought was so generous and kind of spirit. It was maybe two days before Tony Night, and we were about to go out for our curtain call. She said, “You better be writing a speech because you’re going to win this.†I hadn’t been writing a speech. I thought that was so —
K.C.: I wanted her to know what I thought.
I.M.: We were both not in touch with the politics of everything. Donna Murphy had won the Drama Desk for Wonderful Town. In my head I was like, I’m not going to win this. It was like a little blessing Kristin gave me.
K.C.: And it was a beautiful speech too. There was such emotion for me that she won. I was like, Fuck, yeah. I felt like we did it. Our show did it. We didn’t win the big prize, but we had that.
Maybe they were encouraged by the fact that you were both nominated for awards in the same category, but there were persistent rumors that you were at each other’s necks backstage.
K.C.: I’d like to speak on this. After a certain amount of time after we opened, my mom was dealing with cancer. I was emotional and I was thinking about some other things. To me, there was no way that I would win a Tony. Yes, it’s the two girls as leads. But it’s Elphaba’s story. I needed to deal with that part of me. I was very emotional. I tried to push it out, I mean, if only people knew.
I.M.: Unfortunately people like to do that to women. They can’t be supportive of one another. You have to put all this conflict in there.
K.C.: We were so tired.
I.M.: We were tired and extremely supportive of one another. We’d been doing it for, before San Francisco, three years of workshops.
K.C.: It becomes a family. I’m sure, as a sister, I got on her nerves sometimes. I’m positive I did. I get on my own nerves most of the time. But you also know what the other one’s going through. Nobody else can know that but us.
I.M.: I think that song “For Good†was …
K.C.: Very healing.
I.M.: Whatever was going on in our own lives, it was nice to always be able to come to that at the end of a show. We would always look at each other and say, “I got you. You got me. We’re making this thing together. We love each other.†People were saying stuff out there, and we were good at trying to bring it back to the two of us, because that’s all that matters.
K.C.: When that was all starting to happen, some people enjoyed the rumors too. If I could go back in time, I’d be like, “I know what y’all are doing. Stop.†At one awards presentation, I said to Idina, “Can we go out and I’ll have on my neck brace and you have your head wrap and maybe a crutch?†I wanted it to look like we were beating up on each other.
I.M.: Just take the piss out of it all. Because then it’s so outlandish.
Kristin, you left the show after the Tonys in the summer of 2004, and Idina, you stayed until the next January. How did you decide when you each wanted to move on?
K.C.: I was scheduled to stay, but I had gotten a couple of offers that I really wanted to entertain, and the boys let me out to go do that. I had given, even before Dee came on, lots of time to the show, and I didn’t want to stay too long at the fair. And yet it was bittersweet when I left. I couldn’t even say good-bye. I remember Marc Platt saying, “Do you want a party or something?†I said, “No. I don’t do good-byes.†I didn’t go into the Gershwin Theatre again until we did the 15-year reunion, because I think I would’ve cried.
I.M.: After I won the Tony, I realized that they weren’t going to fire me, so I was able to enjoy myself a little bit more. I think that I enjoyed staying longer because I could breathe. People liked me. I had more fun.
When you’ve gone back to see Wicked, how does it feel to see other actors play these roles?
K.C.: I’ve only seen it once. I went in London. I was over there doing a concert at the Royal Albert Hall.
I.M.: Were they all doing the British accents? That’s a little weird, right? When I did it in London, Joe said, “Just keep your American accent†— I guess because I’m the outsider anyway.
K.C.: Then, when we did that 15th anniversary concert for TV, the girl playing Glinda said, “Would you please come?†And I went and then she was out that night! I didn’t want to tell people I was there until after I saw the show. I wouldn’t want anyone to feel self-conscious. How do I say this? I’m always so proud of what Idina and I laid down. So many women have done so well in those roles. That means that we did our jobs.
I.M.: We have incredible pride — the good pride, about what we built together and what we were a part of. I brought my son and his basketball team recently to Wicked. The only other time I’d been was back when he was 4 and rambunctious, hitting the people sitting in front of us. I had to leave halfway through, and I wrote a long note to the Glinda and Elphaba to say I’d be back to see the second act — my son was just ruining it.
Years later, we go back and we’re in the taxi with his whole basketball team, and for whatever reason I had to say to them I was the original star in it. Then, when we’re sitting there watching it and I’d lean over to my son: “Oh, you see that little move? I came up with that. You see that? Kristin, who originated Glinda, she’s the one that came up with that ballet move there.â€
K.C.: But what was their reaction?
I.M.: My son—he pretends to be cool about it, but when he’s in a moment like that, he gets really emotional. He tells me later how proud he is of me.